Nominated for five Academy Awards, Coralie Fargeat’s The Substance has been one of the most talked about movies of the past year. Since its premiere at Cannes, the body horror film has divided opinions in the way it tackles themes like female empowerment, gender stereotypes, and pervading cultural beauty standards, all of which is blended within a pronounced satire. Amidst all this was also plenty of gore and flashy style, but despite such potentially off-putting elements, The Substance was able to find an engaged global audience compelled to extend empathy to both Elisabeth Sparkle (brought to the screen by a terrific Demi Moore) and Monstro Elisasue, most palpably in the film’s final, memorable sequence.
Among the accolades the film has received, The Substance was also nominated for Best Film and Screenplay at the European Film Awards last December. Hours before the ceremony, I sat down with Coralie Fargeat and we talked at length about The Substance‘s cultural impact, as well as her meticulous writing and directing process, her collaboration with Demi Moore, and the ways movies hold potential to bring forth change in society.
Omar Franini: The first time we spoke about the movie was the day after its Cannes premiere, where there was still this “shock” factor. But now several months have passed, The Substance found huge success at the box office, and Monstro Elisasue has probably become one of the most iconic characters of the year. In short, I wanted to ask you if you could tell me more about the movie and your personal journey after the Cannes premiere.
Coralie Fargeat: As we discussed back in Cannes, the selection in competition itself was a huge victory. But now the movie has reached audiences worldwide and their hearts, especially in the way they made the story and its characters their own; for example, during Halloween I saw so many social media posts with people dressed up as the main characters. What you said about Monstro Elisasue is true. For me, it was very moving that she reached the audience the way she did, because she’s the final stage of the character, the moment where she finally finds freedom. It’s the moment where she doesn’t care anymore about how people are going to look at her and she feels liberated to just be herself, to look at her image in the mirror and not criticize it anymore; in short, not caring about who’s going to look at her. And there’s a bit where she thinks “okay, I’m going to put on this dress and my earrings, I want to go outside in the world because I deserve my place in the world, no matter what.” And once she’s on stage, she says, “It’s me, it’s still me.” Seeing the audience being moved by this character was probably the biggest reward because it’s what I wanted to achieve in this final transformation. “Freak monsters” in history and in the films have always represented to me the vulnerability of humankind, and the fact that it’s everything that makes us. The good, the bad, the ugly, the beautiful, the imperfection. Everything that we try to hide or that we feel that society rejects, it’s something that those characters have to deal with. So the fact that people wanted to hug Monstro Elisasue for me was so touching and such a great reward.
OF: Following up on what you said about how people made the movie their own, The Substance has created a big cult following on social media, especially on Twitter and TikTok. How do you feel about this?
CF: For me, that’s amazing. We realized that something has “sparkled” [for] the audience and this trend on social media started. When you make a movie, you are in control of what you are doing in a lot of ways. Myself, as a director, I want to control everything. But if there’s something I can’t manage, it’s the moment when you present the movie to the audience and what people are going to make of it. People are responding very well to the movie and making the images their own, posting fancams, redoing the costumes or specific sequences. I saw so many little clips of people doing the Sue kiss or Elisabeth’s insane cooking. These things have been so crazy to me, and I take them as the best tribute to the movie because it means that people resonated with it. That’s also the best gift that you could give to a filmmaker, to embrace the movie, take it with you and then share it with other people.
OF: Demi Moore mentioned in her memoir how hard it was for her to have the perfect body and how hard she had to work for it. I was wondering if you knew that and if it influenced her casting or the script. Moreover, how was working with her?
CF: No. When I sent her the script, it was very specific. It was really precise and every technical detail was written on the page because, as you know, there’s not a lot of dialogue — it’s everything else that builds the story. All the visual symbolisms and the colors, the framing, the pacing, the tone… everything was already there. I created a specific world, and I think Demi understood my vision and if she wanted to enter the movie, she had to enter that vision. She had to go for it the way it was written and crafted. And, of course, before we started working on the film, we discussed all the aforementioned elements and how she was going to work with them, like the prosthetics.
As for the nudity shots, those were very specific. I knew their importance and meaning inside the story because each one of them says something about the character’s state of mind and how we see ourselves. It was essential to have her understand that and feel at ease with everything, so once we’re on set, she can infuse the scenes with her own emotions and energy, and create the performance around that. We also discussed the tone and how far I was going to push her in some moments, but everything went smoothly. That doesn’t mean there weren’t tough moments. The shooting phase was very long, more than 100 days, and there were good and bad times, days where you’re more tired than usual and others where you felt more vulnerable because we were creating something emotional. But since we had a clear vision about the movie, we were able to create that trust that allowed us to push a step further to archive what we needed. Usually, I need to do a lot of takes until the scene reaches the level of intensity it needs, and when you want to do some crazy sequences like we did, everything that goes before has to be built at the right level because otherwise there is no balance with what comes next. It was essential because if I don’t reach what I planned, it will endanger the entire process. I needed a strong collaboration with Demi to make it work, otherwise what’s in the screenplay wouldn’t have worked.
OF: Do you think this movie will change something in the minds of the studio bosses and in Hollywood?
CF: I mean, I really hope the movie will change things — not only in Hollywood, but all over the world. These are two different things in my opinion. The movie is not about Hollywood, it’s just a symbolic place where I set the story. It’s more about the experience every woman has to go through around the world, no matter where she lives or what she does. Her body will still be scrutinized and put under pressure because of social standards. This generates a real inequality in how women take place in the world, and it also creates a massive inner violence that I show in the film. Because behind the nice makeup and pearly smile, there’s a war inside every woman, which is violent, and we are taught to keep everything within ourselves so that nobody is aware of that. That’s also the explanation behind the last act — you have to really let it go out. I hope this movie can open more eyes on this subject and be the starting point of certain conversations. Of course, it will take some time and things will have to be discussed at length. In The Substance I tried to analyze the different layers behind this subject, and I realized this change needs to happen at the roots of our society. I wish it would be instant, but I’m realistic and I know it’s impossible. On the other hand, there’s an interesting conversation related to the role of TV studios. I’s not about the movie, but it’s something more metaphysical about me, because, you know, as a woman filmmaker making this movie about women with certain themes that are not used to being addressed is not easy, and it was challenging to get the project financed. It was tough to keep my vision and make people understand that I wanted to keep it that way. Basically, it was not a safe space for anyone because people are not used to that and no one really wanted to hear this story. That’s what I’ve been told. A movie with two women doesn’t make as much money as compared to one with male leads. It has always been a fight to put those stories on the screen and to have different voices heard. Seeing how the movie has become successful and has reached an audience are the best things that could have happened to me. You can’t imagine the number of texts I received from other young female filmmakers thanking me for doing this movie. It gave me strength and the hope that maybe I could do something meaningful in this industry. When I grew up, there were almost no female directors doing genre movies. All my role models and directors who I took inspiration from were males. So I’m glad that nowadays I can be that kind of role model and maybe help pave the way for other young filmmakers who maybe have a script as bold as The Substance and are afraid that it may not be successful.
OF: Yet The Substance also kind of exposes the male fragility in the cinematic industry because a movie like yours will always receive criticism for being directed by a woman or the way you analyzed feminist themes. This crisis in the white male especially can be found everywhere in our society, so I’m wondering how much importance this had on your movie and how it influenced the portrayal of male characters.
CF: I’m not going to feel sorry for the white male crisis. Really? I think we have to let it happen and keep it going. The thing is, when there is a change, you’re always going to have some reactions from people who want to keep things as they are. I’m still very much impressed about what happened for the MeToo movement. People thought that there was going to be a real change and things would be different, but if you look at the statistics, we can’t say that much has changed. What’s even worse is the backlash that followed the movement. The reactions were violent and repressive because people wanted to keep that balance in power. We have to have a revolution and stop discussing things, we have to speak up and take action. If we want a drastic change, this needs to be massive. Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re at that point and we’re not ready for this revolution to happen. There’s still too much fear and power imbalance in our society, but hopefully things will change soon. We just have to fight against this backlash and the crisis you were mentioning. When I read that one woman every minute is raped in the world, that they are victims of domestic abuse or that there’s still a huge salary inequality, everything is very frustrating. So when people look at that and say, “Hasn’t the MeToo movement gone too far?” I’m like no, we’re just at the beginning.
OF: And do you think movies are the best tool to fight this crisis?
CF: I mean, that’s the tool that I have. I can express myself and feel powerful through cinema, and I think movies can make a difference and bring awareness about some themes in people’s minds. Representation is also important because, you know, I grew up with fairy tales like Cinderella or Barbie, and I basically had the stereotype in mind where to have the “happy ending,” to find love and happiness, you have to be a young, thin, blond princess who has to be saved by some kind of prince. Even when you become more mature and educated, you can still feel the prejudice and that emotional weight caused by the way people judge you or look at you. A change in the way the culture sells these stereotypes needs to happen, especially in the way young generations are portrayed and what makes them happy, feel successful and empowered. This change can make a huge difference in the long term because it shows that there are choices in our lives and we don’t have to follow certain patterns to feel accepted or not like a monster. I’m trying to build new ways of representation in my cinema that feel aligned with who I am and with the way I love to express myself. I’ve always been told how I would be as a girl and that when you’re little, you’re supposed to be delicate, gentle, quiet, and to “always smile.” I didn’t fit in these stereotypes and this kind of society at all. I had to find a way to feel myself, and I did it through my cinema, first with Revenge and then with The Substance. I thought about everything that I wish I could have done and how I could have behaved differently in this current society, and I said that I would do all of that through cinema, my space of freedom. For a long time only men directed genre movies because they were the only ones allowed to do crazy stuff, to have fun and do empowering things, and when I was younger I had the feeling women couldn’t do it. And if you think about it, this stereotypical conception starts indeed from a young age when, for example, cooking tools are gifted to girls. Nowadays, there’s more women empowerment and we have so many different ways to express ourselves, and hopefully, in the future, this will be something normal and not something revolutionary.
OF: I’m glad you’d mentioned Cinderella because in The Substance you used different elements from the fairy tale, especially in the New Year’s Eve section with Sue’s blue dress or even the fact that she has to be home “before midnight.” Could you expand more on the ideas behind this comparison?
CF: Yes, absolutely. I think Cinderella and the fairy tales in general were a big reference and influence for the movie because these stories deal exactly with the fact that there are parts of us that we have to hide and with how the world sees, or decides to see, us. At times, you just want to wear a beautiful dress, put on some makeup and all the rest, but then you have to go home and hide yourself because you feel or get considered ugly, and not valued enough. That’s exactly what creates The Substance, that feeling that if you’re not thin, young, beautiful, or perfect, you don’t deserve to be outside in the world. That’s what Elisabeth does basically — she shuts herself down in her apartment and she stops going out. She believes that the only version of herself who’s allowed to be seen and to receive attention is the Sue one, because she’s beautiful and sexy, and when she goes outside, all eyes are looking at her. This dichotomy where there’s this idea that some part of us are not good enough to be part of the society creates a massive violence. When I grew up, I really believed that every part of my body was not perfect and that I was a monster. I spent many years trying to hide my body, to do diets and other things to try and look like the perfect woman you were seeing in the advertisements, which is not reality. But you don’t know that when you’re young. You don’t know about Photoshop, or the power of makeup and lighting. You just think these women are goddesses, and if you don’t look like them because of cellulite, for example, then you’re a monster. There’s this dichotomy inside ourselves about our identity, and we keep fighting ourselves in a way. That’s what The Substance is really about, because we are all very multifaceted; we are not just one thing. It’s like there are different parts of yourself that are fighting together and creating so much violence to try and look like this ideal of perfection, which is not real. It’s just something created by the eyes of other people who fantasize a version of yourself they can showcase everywhere. The final part with Monstro is an amplification of that idea of “I don’t give a fuck, I’m me.” So she will put on that beautiful dress and earrings, she won’t care if she will crack because she’s fat and go out to take her place on the stage because she deserves it. Unfortunately, our society is still not ready to listen to that message.
OF: What about Death Becomes Her from Robert Zemeckis? That movie takes a satirical approach with similar subject matter. Was it another reference for you?
CF: The funny thing is that I haven’t watched that movie yet, but it’s on my watchlist because I’ve heard about the comparisons with The Substance. I think there are many obvious influences in movies, and some of these are totally involuntary or unconscious. So even if you haven’t seen a movie, you can clearly see the influence in it because movies are able to capture something of the world and each director has to find their own voice, their way to make it their own. As far as movie references go, I think it’s like a cycle where you can be influenced by a certain director, and at the same time, he might have been influenced by another author. It’s not like stealing, and I believe there is this kind of creative bond where filmmakers can share their common imagination.
OF: So what were your main movie references for The Substance?
CF: I had too many, and I would say that every movie I’ve watched and loved has influenced me throughout my career. For The Substance, I had specific references, of course, because there are movies that deal with the same themes or maybe there are scenes that are very similar from a visual point of view. If I have to mention some titles, The Fly by David Cronenberg would be the number one because it had a huge impact when I was young, especially with how it deals with the body transformation. Sci-fi movies and body horrors always deal with the human condition and our desire to escape from our human shape, transform ourselves and do things our bodies didn’t allow us to do. I could also mention John Carpenter movies because they are thematically related to The Fly and the body transformation subject. Requiem for a Dream was also another reference because the movie deals with obsession, that desire to be loved and be noticed and how it can make you do insane things, like not eating and changing your appearance, leading you to have this deranged relationship with yourself. 2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) also had a high impact on me, but unlike the other movies I mentioned, I watched the Kubrick one when I was around 23 years old and I still remember how I was amazed by the storytelling and how he was able to express emotions without using dialogue. I’ve always been responsive to this kind of cinema because I don’t express myself through much dialogue, and I prefer using locations to create or [express] something. Take, for example, the different perspectives of the corridor shots. There’s a meaning behind these choices, and usually they reflect the mental state of the main character. I could go on and mention other movies, but as I’ve said, everything I’ve loved has helped me shape my cinema and spark my creativity.
OF: How do you feel about the movie’s success and all the awards it has been winning?
CF: I mean, this is the best I could ever hope for. I still remember the incredible reactions we had at TIFF, and screening the movie in the Midnight Madness section was very special for me. I screened Revenge there years ago, and to have my second feature receiving the audience award was moving. We also got recognition by the critics and the industry awards, which is really amazing for a movie like The Substance. I think genre movies are probably the most political because behind the entertainment value, which is something really important for me too, these allow you to outline a vital and specific critique about our society. That’s why I think movies can help change the world. Sometimes I read articles where they state that the Academy isn’t bold enough to reward the violence and the genre aspect of The Substance. But I think the Academy can be bold now because there are new generations among the voters.
OF: What can you tell me about your collaboration with Raffertie? Given your precise idea about the movie and its aesthetic, I was wondering if you gave him any indication of what you wanted from the score.
CF: I had a specific idea in mind about the score. Even before writing the script, I had a clear vision of what I wanted from the visuals and the music. Both aspects were essential in the creation of the movie because they helped me tell this story as much as the characters did. I started listening to a lot of music with rough and very aggressive EDM rhythms because I was looking for something that would match the violent relationship someone has with their body. At the base you have this dominating heartbeat and breathing that reflects the sounds inside the body, like the fluids, the circulation, and all these things. When I was writing the script, I kept listening to these specific rhythms, and consequently the music helped shaping the tempo of the story, if that makes sense. I really needed these specific sounds, and when I started editing the movie I didn’t have a composer. We shot the movie for more than 100 days as I said before, and since I did the editing myself, I knew really well that the post-production phase was going to be long. At first I used the 10 tracks I used to listen to during the writing process, but I wasn’t really sure about it, and after a while I realized that it was the perfect time to introduce a composer in the process. So Raffertie arrived quite late in the process because things didn’t go as planned and there were some scheduling problems. I remember I sent him a rough cut of the movie with the ten tracks I chose in it. I asked him if he wanted to have a look at it with my suggestions, and he accepted because he needed to have more indications and references so he would understand my vision. I chose him because when I listened to his demos, I was really impressed by the two elements I was looking for: on one hand, the hardcore beats that reflect the violence, and on the other, some heartbreaking and moving melodies. As for the latter, I was impressed by this track with the violins he did for I May Destroy You. Everything went smoothly while we were working, and the funny thing is that we had little time because he was in London while I was split between Paris for the editing and in Corsica for the sound mixing. We never met in person during the time, we only did Zoom sessions. I met him for the first time in Cannes at the world premiere of the movie, and when I found myself in front of him, I was shocked by how tall he is [laughs]. What I loved about him is that he understood the process perfectly and he believed in the movie, which I think was the most important thing. He understood how crazy and different it was. I’ll be honest, the post-production was very tough because people kept telling me to make the movie less strange, less violent, less this and less that… Raffertie saw my cut and he loved it, he gave me strength and enthusiasm to keep going. People wanted the Monstro section to be more pretty and gentle; in short, they wanted to try to hide it. But I knew what I wanted, and it had to be excessive, gross, and especially not gentle at all. Raffertie responded very well to this part, and that was a strong signal that I’d found the right collaborator for the movie. He worked so hard in such a short time period and it was a great experience to share my vision with him.
OF: I would like to end this conversation with one short question. Recently, I’ve found the screenplay of The Substance online, and on the first page we can find two quotes: “Everything flows, nothing remains” by Heraclitus and “Don’t you know, pump it up, you’ve got to pump it up,” taken from Danzel’s song. Was this really on the first page or was it something you added later?
CF: Yes, because it was a way to show that this kind of tale had been told since the beginning of humanity. We may have changed the ways we tell this story, but we’re still after the same thing. As I was saying before about sci-fi and body horror, humanity has always tried to conquer their fears, desires, and escape from their mortality. This thought was already there with the first philosophers, and it’s the same nowadays with Instagram and TikTok, or even the “pump it up” world. It’s a circle that keeps going on.
Comments are closed.